Neeli: "Pat, you need to swallow your pride and hire Terry. If you refuse to do so, then I will hire Terry and we'll see what transpires from there."
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GregInPitt
Well-known member
By what the expectation are at PSU, Saban also "flunked out at Mich St." as well, before going to the NFL.
Saban only became successful when he got to the SEC where he could cheat, over signing his classes and roster by 6-12 players every year and then cutting them down to the 85 after the over rated out of H.S. players showed they were over rated. That allowed him to run an extra 20-40% of players through his practices compared to teams like PSU that didn't allow such under handed behavior of their coaches and athletic departments.
If PSU is so despirate to win they may have to resort to bringing in a coach that is as good at cheating as Saban was.....
GregInPitt
Well-known member
Terry was Associate Head Coach, even though he wasn't the defensive or offensive coordinator. Terry being named interum head coach pretty much shows that he was looked at as an equal of "coordinator responsibility" within Franklin's staff.
Terry was also defensive player recruiting coordinator which shows that he had a good bit of input into which H.S. players were targeted on defense, maybe as an equal to the Defensive Coordinator. But this surely shows he had very good organization and recruit to coach communication skills which are necessary for head coach success.
Nick Saban had been a highly successful head coach in college before going to the NFL. Brian Daboli: not so much.
Same thing for guys like Spurrier, Holtz, and others. They had sterling records as head coaches at the college level before failing in the NFL.
Sheriff Coffee
Well-known member
NittanyLion99
Well-known member
Sounds like you don't know much about leadership, respectfully. If that's what you took away from my comment, then you probably shouldn't have an opinion on strategy or leadership. Managers, Directors, and Vice Presidents have different roles, experience, and competencies. No one jumps from a Manager to a VP. There is a significant gap in KSAs. Terry Smith is a position coach. PSU FB is valued at $1.2B. Putting Terry in charge of executing for a $1.2B operation, is like Google promoting a middle-manager to President.
It appears PSU is in a bad place. If they are, doing something out of desperation is far worse, and generally far more expensive, than being methodical and getting it right. The wrong guy is a multi-year problem that could cost the program 10s-100s of millions of dollars.
Every decision in life is a trade-off and bigger decisions have bigger risks and consequences. In searching for someone to lead a $1.2B operation, the risk of failure must be considered. Terry is a position coach. Terry has never had a direct report at the college level. Putting him in charge of the operation, as a 3rd line manager is extremely risky and I would consider it an act of desperation.
If Terry is the guy, Kraft should do it because he believes Terry can excel with a short learning curve, and not because PSU FB is in a nosedive and he "hopes" Terry can pull the plane up from a nosedive. Hope is not a strategy and, respectfully, if you worked for me, I would fire you for suggesting that we act rashly out of perceived desperation.
The recruiting class fell apart. It was going to anyway. Franklin sold a relationship with himself, not Penn State. As soon as franklin was gone, so was most of the class. Even if Terry is hired, I think the progam will see significant portal departures.
NittanyLion99
Well-known member
FWIW, Spurrier generally got beat when he faced teams of same/similar talent. He "succeeded" at Florida by recruiting more talent than others. Look at old film and it was a lot of average QBs chucking jump balls to big receivers who could out jump shorter DBs. (Remind anyone of 2016 in Central PA?). I lived in DC when he went to the Redskins. Man, what an arrogant - and average - guy. So many dumb football things were said by a supposedly "sterling" coach.
What are the exact areas or behaviors that would be most at risk with Terry as head coach (e.g. player assessment; hiring)? And could a GM and other dedicated personnel be given added responsibilities to mitigate some or all of that risk? Again, Terry's not asked to interpret financial reports or come up with M&A strategies.
TheNewBoss
Member
GregInPitt
Well-known member
This doesn't look "highly successful" to me. In fact I don't believe he would have gotten on PSU initial big board had he now been at MSU with this resume. Looks like about what Ruhl has accomplished.... Not much. Maybe if PSU would have let him oversign and bend most other recruiting "rules" like he did at Bama he could have succeeded at PSU as well...... Who knows.
Nick Saban's record at Michigan State from 1995 to 1999 was 34–24–1. During his five seasons as head coach, he had a 23–16–1 record against Big Ten opponents and never had a losing season. His final season in 1999 ended with a 10–2 record, and the team reached a peak of fifth in the AP Poll.
- Overall Record: 34–24–1
- Big Ten Record: 23–16–1
- Bowl Games: 0–3 record in bowl games during his tenure
- Best Season: 1999, with a 10–2 record
- Notable achievements: Led Michigan State to its first nine-win season since 1987 in 1999.
Don't forget Mary, he almost beat the number 2 team Indiana, with a QB making his second start, and minus Rojas. The same Indiana team that beat Oregon.
LudicrousSpeedGO!
Well-known member
Your assessment is flat out dishonest.Sure PSU is the Gold Standard of coaching stability- the Paterno years, ensuing fallout and semi-cult remnants should be a shining beacon for the stability minded!
Sure top candidates see elite resources, plenty of stability and long term success here!
That helps explain why there have been so many vacancies and so little interest in the stable, high paying high reward job at PSU! That you, a fan, can gleefully explain away Franklin's entire body of work in 5 bullet points, impugn his motives, mental toughness, and fitness as a person should be a big plus to coaching prospects. No variance or nuance here: Just razor sharp fan analysis that's incontrovertible! A 3-game skid including an OT loss to a top 10 team and you can expect that the fans will bully the AD into making a decision next game. What's not to like?
I wonder what all these real-world coaching candidates aren't seeing?
1) We've had 5 head coaches since 1950. Name another school that is ANYWHERE close to that level of consistency. My point that I made is that coaches can look at our history and fully understand that if they have a greater opportunity for long-term stability at PSU than any other school in the entire country.
2) What it took for Franklin to go after 11 YEARS, was greatest consecutive loss collapse of a top 5 ranked team preseason in the history of the sport. It is very disingenuous to simply refer to it as a "3-game skid including an OT loss to a top 10 team". It was the #2 team in the country who made it to the semifinals the previous season returning more starters than ANY top 10 preseason team following up their first loss with consecutive losses to 3-9 headcoachless UCLA and 6-6 Northwestern at home. It was the most precipitous drop of any top 5 school in the history of the sport and it 100% necessitated that Franklin had to be fired. He was and guess what, the team finished the year playing much better and on a 3 game win streak under Franklin's former defensive backs coach.
LudicrousSpeedGO!
Well-known member
I had addressed this a page ago in my response to you. Below was that response.
Swinney appears to have made the jump when the head coach and offensive coordinator were fired. Swinney was next up as interim head coach and offensive coordinator. He was also the recruiting coordinator. He appears to have had more responsibilities than Terry did but he did make the jump at what was not a top program at the time. Clemson was 9-5 and then 6-7 before jumping to 10-4 in the ensuing seasons in a weak ACC. So, there is some precedent at a middling power 4 school in a weak conference. It did take him 3 years, but Clemson finished #22 in the polls in that 3rd year. IMO, this is the best-case scenario for Terry if he were offered the head job.
Urban was a head coach at Bowling Green before taking over a major program. Nehlen was head coach at Bowling Green St before WVU (who I don't consider a major program at the level of PSU and neither should you).
You have added a data point that I had not realized, Swinney. The circumstances were similar but at a lesser program in a lesser conference and Swinney appears to have had more responsibilities prior to his promotion than Terry. But it can now be said that there is a precedent even if it is a needle in the haystack.
For the record, if they go the route of hiring Terry, I would be 100% behind him and the team. However, I remain convinced that it has a low probability of success and would require massive scaffolding in place for Terry to have a chance at that success.
Big104EvuhDuh
New member
"100 percent necessitated that Franklin had to be fired" is ludicrous on its face, ironically. They could absolutely have given Franklin the season and then fired at the end. They could have sat him down and talked performance metrics, tried to figure out what was going on with the ugly skid. In other words, they could have considered consequences and acted judiciously! This was a big swing and a miss, filled with big di** energy and implying that coaches and people are entirely expendable when there are championships to win- another ludicrous move based on wildly off-kilter assumptions. Even in the NIL era, football players and coaches are people, not chess pieces to be wielded by the brand, you know, and treatment matters. Dumping Franklin exactly like Nebraska did 16-31 Scott Frost sends a hell of a message and delusion with entitlement chasers is a hell of a drug combo.
You insisting that a 3-game swing, however unfortunate and unexpected, negates what Franklin did is exactly what I'm talking about. Calling me dishonest is exactly what I'm talking about. Kraft swinging a hammer with a big ****eating grin seemingly in the knowledge that a cadre of hardcore fans would defend it- after demanding it- is also what I'm talking about.
Keep equivocating and swinging for the fences about why it "Had to happen" when the results have been outright disastrous. No coaching search has been as dismal, player exodus as brutal and the ex-coach landing on their feet so rapidly, successfully and seemingly backed by a narrative of humanity. Keep griping, carping, moaning and zealously denigrating- oh and definitely talking about 1950- see how it keeps going.
LudicrousSpeedGO!
Well-known member
Yes, Clemson was a middling power 4 school at the time that Dabo was hired. They finished the season ranked 4 times in the 15 years prior to Dabo getting the job (#21 in 2007, #21 in 2005, #22 in 2003, and #16 in 2000). Perhaps middling was a generous assessment of Clemson before Dabo.
I'd say his record at Michigan State was successful. He was then hired by LSU where he won a national championship and compiled a winning percentage of almost 80%. I'd say that's "highly successful."
The point is you can't compare Nick Saban to Brian Daboli. They're not even in the same universe when it comes to college football resumes.
We'll have to disagree about Spurrier. I think he was an excellent head coach at the college level. I mean, the guy won a national championship and something like seven SEC titles. Hard to believe all that came from chucking jump balls.
Anyway, the larger point was that there is no comparison between the college football records of guys like Saban and Spurrier...and that of Brian Daboli who has never head-coached a single game in college.
If our choice is between Daboli and Terry Smith, it's not a close call in my mind. But apparently Kraft sees it differently and his opinion counts for slightly more than mine.
LudicrousSpeedGO!
Well-known member
You are dishonest. You really think that a coach that has already been given 11 years and who already has a record against top 10 teams that became a national punchline shouldn't get canned after the most precipitous consecutive loss drop from a top 5 preseason ranking in the history of the sport?
And what does that look like? Does PSU end the season 3-9 with players openly quitting during games, more head coach confrontations and fights with fans while cameras are rolling, etc.? It was time. You can say things turned out bad but if we hire a good coach and turned around the 2025 season to at least get bowl eligible, then we are almost certainly much, much, much better off.
Further, 5 coaches since 1950 is BY FAR the most coaching stability in the country. It's not even close. You were the one that said we didn't have coaching stability. That is dishonest.
Big104EvuhDuh
New member
Now you're being silly and this is becoming a bit of a waste of time for me. I might say that Iowa has the "Most coaching stability in the country, by far!" based on nearly any metric, but I'm not the one throwing around nonsensical grand proclamations.... that's you. In addition to bombastic, I find you ludicrous, petty and delusional.
LudicrousSpeedGO!
Well-known member
I have to disagree with you on this Gregg. Terry was AHC as a title to justify the pay increases that he had received. Even in his interviews in recent weeks, he has indicated that he stayed in his lane and didn't really have knowledge of what was going on in other areas. If you are acting as a true associate head, you would have at least visibility of the areas of responsibility of the head. This is just something that they do to justify salaries to the board.