Spell looking around.

[Sheriff Coffee]

If he’s smart, he will get his education and get the heck out of McKeesport.

totally agree. but he'll have both a college education and millions of dollars in the bank when he graduates.

Not to your post but these kids make the university tens of millions of dollars. The surrounding businesses (hotels, restaurants, govts, papers, TV, radio) also make millions. I don't blame them for maximizing their cut. Most of these kids never get an NFL contract. Hell, in the old days, they would get a degree but in underwater basket weaving or whatever. Good luck with that. We've seen kids "graduate" who are illiterate. It isn't surprising to see kids and their agents exploit the system that exploited them for half a century.

 

[sr108]

totally agree. but he'll have both a college education and millions of dollars in the bank when he graduates.

Not to your post but these kids make the university tens of millions of dollars. The surrounding businesses (hotels, restaurants, govts, papers, TV, radio) also make millions. I don't blame them for maximizing their cut. Most of these kids never get an NFL contract. Hell, in the old days, they would get a degree but in underwater basket weaving or whatever. Good luck with that. We've seen kids "graduate" who are illiterate. It isn't surprising to see kids and their agents exploit the system that exploited them for half a century.

I get your point, but they did get free room and board, free books and supplies, and a chance at a free college degree worth over six figures in today’s world. I don’t begrudge them getting a cut of the college take, but I am concerned regarding the fast and lose nature of how the money is distributed. I also worry about the number of schools that will actually be able to afford staying in the game, and if you actually will have as many student athletes get the opportunity for a degree that you once had as schools gradually drop out of the equation.

 

[Sheriff Coffee]

I get your point, but they did get free room and board, free books and supplies, and a chance at a free college degree worth over six figures in today’s world. I don’t begrudge them getting a cut of the college take, but I am concerned regarding the fast and lose nature of how the money is distributed. I also worry about the number of schools that will actually be able to afford staying in the game, and if you actually will have as many student athletes get the opportunity for a degree that you once had as schools gradually drop out of the equation.

Yep. But most of that is legal issues around employee labor laws. We need a CBA.

 

[bdroc]

these kids make the university tens of millions of dollars.

I've always disagreed with that statement. 100,000 fans don't come to PSU games because they expect to see NFL caliber talent. They come back to visit the campus where they went to college and to experience the college atmosphere. There's no doubt in my mind that the crowds would still attend college games if the most elite players went directly to the NFL or a professional minor league. This would prove out if there was a separate minor league for those elite players. There's zero chance that those minor leagues would draw like the colleges in spite of having superior talent.

The other thing is only a handful of college athletic programs are profitable. Fortunately for PSU they are one of the few. So yes football makes money but that money used to support 20+ other sports.

One more thing. There's an enormous value that players receive. A lot of high school kids PAY $100k per year to attend places like IMG academy. So add that to the free college education. clothing, nutrition, etc.

I understand that it is what it is. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

 

[Sheriff Coffee]

I've always disagreed with that statement. 100,000 fans don't come to PSU games because they expect to see NFL caliber talent. They come back to visit the campus where they went to college and to experience the college atmosphere. There's no doubt in my mind that the crowds would still attend college games if the most elite players went directly to the NFL or a professional minor league. This would prove out if there was a separate minor league for those elite players. There's zero chance that those minor leagues would draw like the colleges in spite of having superior talent.

The other thing is only a handful of college athletic programs are profitable. Fortunately for PSU they are one of the few. So yes football makes money but that money used to support 20+ other sports.

One more thing. There's an enormous value that players receive. A lot of high school kids PAY $100k per year to attend places like IMG academy. So add that to the free college education. clothing, nutrition, etc.

I understand that it is what it is. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

I have to disagree with you.

If PSU suddenly turned into Purdue or NW, the university would lose millions in revenue. NW just built a new stadium that is set to last them 50 years. The capacity? 35,000. NW can't envision a time in the next 50 years when they will need more than 35,000 seats.

Now, where I agree with you is that PSU has built up a "program" that is now a juggernaut. A single bad year, or several put together, isn't going to have too much of an effect. But ten years? That would be devastating. PSU lost a lot of fans during the JS scandal and I recall going to games thinking that there were probably fewer than 90k fans there. I really believe it was the fans that saved the program because the fans saw that this was an unfair media lynching. But if the coach and admin really did conspire to assist JS's actions, things would have been really bad for the program.

About half the stadiums come in a 70k or less and are often very empty on game days. PSU almost always goes 100k+. 40,000 people is a heck of a revenue difference. At $100 a seat (and parking) that is a $4,000,000 delta per game. And that doesn't take into consideration the brand enhancement.

Honestly, if not for football, PSU would be a 30k university in the middle of the cow pastures of central PA. There is literally nothing in the middle of the state of PA. It is commonly referred to as "Pennsyltucky."

 

[bdroc]

I have to disagree with you.

If PSU suddenly turned into Purdue or NW, the university would lose millions in revenue. NW just built a new stadium that is set to last them 50 years. The capacity? 35,000. NW can't envision a time in the next 50 years when they will need more than 35,000 seats.

Now, where I agree with you is that PSU has built up a "program" that is now a juggernaut. A single bad year, or several put together, isn't going to have too much of an effect. But ten years? That would be devastating. PSU lost a lot of fans during the JS scandal and I recall going to games thinking that there were probably fewer than 90k fans there. I really believe it was the fans that saved the program because the fans saw that this was an unfair media lynching. But if the coach and admin really did conspire to assist JS's actions, things would have been really bad for the program.

About half the stadiums come in a 70k or less and are often very empty on game days. PSU almost always goes 100k+. 40,000 people is a heck of a revenue difference. At $100 a seat (and parking) that is a $4,000,000 delta per game. And that doesn't take into consideration the brand enhancement.

Honestly, if not for football, PSU would be a 30k university in the middle of the cow pastures of central PA. There is literally nothing in the middle of the state of PA. It is commonly referred to as "Pennsyltucky."

I think you proved my point with the JS scandal. PSU attendance only fell to 97,000 after the JS scandal. Isn't it amazing that 97,000 fans would still come to games knowing that the team was hit with sanctions and prohibited from post season play.

I agree that in the long term fans are more excited to watch a competitive team that has a chance to win a championship (or just beat a rival like OSU). My example assumed that most of the elite players would go to a professional minor league where they would be paid. PSU would still be competitive because the top players from OSU, Michigan, Oregon, etc would also go to the minor league teams. I contend that college teams wouldn't lose fans to the minor league teams who have better players. Just look at the UFL who only gets 13k fans per game.

 

[Sheriff Coffee]

I think you proved my point with the JS scandal. PSU attendance only fell to 97,000 after the JS scandal. Isn't it amazing that 97,000 fans would still come to games knowing that the team was hit with sanctions and prohibited from post season play.

I agree that in the long term fans are more excited to watch a competitive team that has a chance to win a championship (or just beat a rival like OSU). My example assumed that most of the elite players would go to a professional minor league where they would be paid. PSU would still be competitive because the top players from OSU, Michigan, Oregon, etc would also go to the minor league teams. I contend that college teams wouldn't lose fans to the minor league teams who have better players. Just look at the UFL who only gets 13k fans per game.

IMHO, traditions die hard.

Minor leagues have been tried and tried. As a rabid football fan, I never watch them...at all...ever. What we are seeing is college football is turning into the minor leagues for the NFL. They are paid, professional teams. For example, I saw that Drew Allar has only one class to take to graduate. So he is only taking one class this fall. To me, he is no longer a PSU student. He is making $3,000,000 this year to play football for PSU and pretend to be a student.

So it is evolving from being a collage to being pro and will continue to do so. 20 years from now it is likely that the college name on the jerzy will just be for show. And just like with any pro team, if the team isn't winning, people stop going. Look at the Detroit Tigers. They averaging 30,000 fans over 82 home games. Two years ago, they averaged less than 20,000. That is an 820,000 difference over a single year.

I'll add that PSU was very competitive. They still went 8-4, beating both Iowa and Wisconsin. I attended the PSU victory over a ranked NW team that year when PSU was 3-2, having lost to MAC Ohio U and VA. I think that was one of the most important wins in PSU history. The following year we went 7-5 with a massive whiteout OT win against Michigan. But if we had four years of sub 500 ball, we'd have seen a big drop off IMHO.

 

[bdroc]

IMHO, traditions die hard.

Minor leagues have been tried and tried. As a rabid football fan, I never watch them...at all...ever. What we are seeing is college football is turning into the minor leagues for the NFL. They are paid, professional teams. For example, I saw that Drew Allar has only one class to take to graduate. So he is only taking one class this fall. To me, he is no longer a PSU student. He is making $3,000,000 this year to play football for PSU and pretend to be a student.

So it is evolving from being a collage to being pro and will continue to do so. 20 years from now it is likely that the college name on the jerzy will just be for show. And just like with any pro team, if the team isn't winning, people stop going. Look at the Detroit Tigers. They averaging 30,000 fans over 82 home games. Two years ago, they averaged less than 20,000. That is an 820,000 difference over a single year.

I'll add that PSU was very competitive. They still went 8-4, beating both Iowa and Wisconsin. I attended the PSU victory over a ranked NW team that year when PSU was 3-2, having lost to MAC Ohio U and VA. I think that was one of the most important wins in PSU history. The following year we went 7-5 with a massive whiteout OT win against Michigan. But if we had four years of sub 500 ball, we'd have seen a big drop off IMHO.

I agree with everything you just said. I just don't see it as the players making $millions for the schools. If the top level players went to a minor league we would still have competitive college games and fans would keep coming. The players would still come for the education, training, and other perks. The fans would keep coming for the nostalgia and pageantry.

I agree that Allar is a fake student this year. IMO he should be required to take more credits to remain eligible. The jersey is already just for show.

 

[Sheriff Coffee]

I agree with everything you just said. I just don't see it as the players making $millions for the schools. If the top level players went to a minor league we would still have competitive college games and fans would keep coming. The players would still come for the education, training, and other perks. The fans would keep coming for the nostalgia and pageantry.

I agree that Allar is a fake student this year. IMO he should be required to take more credits to remain eligible. The jersey is already just for show.

I don't know how you can't see that, to be honest. Penn State makes $80m a year off of our football program. The typical MAC school makes around $10m (Ohio U plays Rutgers, WVU and tOSU their first three games). Westminster Collge in Western PA, a big sports school, made $2m across all of their sports.

The big differentiator is that PSU plays football with elite athletes and competes at the very highest level. If PSU did not, they'd fall to the Northwestern, MAC and Westminster levels over time. Those are just the facts of college athletics, football right now.

 

[RickinDayton]

I get your point, but they did get free room and board, free books and supplies, and a chance at a free college degree worth over six figures in today’s world. I don’t begrudge them getting a cut of the college take, but I am concerned regarding the fast and lose nature of how the money is distributed. I also worry about the number of schools that will actually be able to afford staying in the game, and if you actually will have as many student athletes get the opportunity for a degree that you once had as schools gradually drop out of the equation.

Who are the schools that have to share the 20 million $ ? Is it only Group of 4 schools, or Group of 5 also?
Do Divisions II & III have any requirements to distribute revenue?

 

[ryoder1]

I agree with everything you just said. I just don't see it as the players making $millions for the schools. If the top level players went to a minor league we would still have competitive college games and fans would keep coming. The players would still come for the education, training, and other perks. The fans would keep coming for the nostalgia and pageantry.

I agree that Allar is a fake student this year. IMO he should be required to take more credits to remain eligible. The jersey is already just for show.

The key assumption in this debate is if the team stays competitive. For Penn State, the tradition is so rich that I think we would always get 70,000 or even 80,000 to every game. Michigan State is kind of like this. Good in the 60's but not really since sans some years with Dantonio but their attendance is still good.

This is not the main point, though. If all the elite guys say the top 300 or whatever it is just move to a professional minor league not affiliated with the colleges then this levels the playing field for all. To clarify, I think you still have the traditional powers still at the top but the talent level across the board is now less. For example the #1 recruit is now player #301 in the nation because players 1-300 are all in the minor leagues getting paid. So under this scenario, Penn State would not lose any revenue because the team would still he competitive and I believe 100,000 would still attend games. Meanwhile the Kemon Spell's of the world are playing minor league football in front of 10,000 people.

The Allar situation taking one class does not bother me. He will get his degree and obviously has earned enough credits through his first 3 years and in the summer terms to only need one class to graduate. That is a good thing. I don't see this any different than an education major who has one class left and also is student teaching. They both are working on their chosen professional career path.

I think you have 100,000 fans show up each Saturday at Penn State for the tradition and pageantry of Penn State football and the pride of fans to watch their alma mater or a school they are simply a fan of. It is not to watch the latest new LB but to see the team perform and hopefully win. Yes, the individual players are obviously part of it but the Penn State brand transcends that.

I do agree that if Penn State started to become a losing program then that would hurt attendance. It would have to. Given our tradition and history though we could probably hold at about 70,000 but I guess if we were really bad for decades maybe the bottom is like 50,000. So from that perspective, top players do make millions for the schools because they have a direct impact on the attendance. Not sure if TV revenue share would change if we would still be part of the B10. But I am sure we would see a drop in enrollment.

 

[Lazy Dave]

There will never be minor league football in the same fashion minor league baseball exists. The brand is the draw. The average fan can't name 1 HS recruit and half of us who post here probably can't name more than 5 in the current class without looking it up. We care about the kids who chose the school we follow.

Why do the spring leagues fail? No brand loyalty.

College football will continue to evolve. The rift between haves and have nots may grow even greater, but the reality is a school like Indiana is in the same shape today as they were for the past 75 years except now they can put forth the money (revenue distribution and donors) and say "we want to build a winning team." 15 years ago, they would have had to start paying recruits under the table for 3+ years and hire better coaches to even conceive a playoff birth. And with the BCS, they had to earn 1 of 2 spots. With the original playoff, there were 4. Now, we have 12.

 

[ryoder1]

There will never be minor league football in the same fashion minor league baseball exists. The brand is the draw. The average fan can't name 1 HS recruit and half of us who post here probably can't name more than 5 in the current class without looking it up. We care about the kids who chose the school we follow.

Why do the spring leagues fail? No brand loyalty.

College football will continue to evolve. The rift between haves and have nots may grow even greater, but the reality is a school like Indiana is in the same shape today as they were for the past 75 years except now they can put forth the money (revenue distribution and donors) and say "we want to build a winning team." 15 years ago, they would have had to start paying recruits under the table for 3+ years and hire better coaches to even conceive a playoff birth. And with the BCS, they had to earn 1 of 2 spots. With the original playoff, there were 4. Now, we have 12.

Indiana could build a strong program but they have to hope Cignetti is the next Alvarez or Joe Paterno if they want to dream really big.

I agree that college football would never become a minor league system like baseball. The difference in popularity between college football and college baseball is monumental. As you say, the college football brands are the stars not the individual players.

 

[NittanyLion99]

Doesn't seem actually committed


5-star Penn State commit RB Kemon Spell names 6 school that could flip him - pennlive.com https://share.google/G1mCuVGxzXWKLF1fM

 

[zouavelion5]

I ve read that Spell is basically skipping his teams game tonight with an "injury " so he can head out to Columbus tonight. His recruitment is going to be a challenge for Franklin....James may tell him to take a hike at some point.

 

[RickinDayton]

I ve read that Spell is basically skipping his teams game tonight with an "injury " so he can head out to Columbus tonight. His recruitment is going to be a challenge for Franklin....James may tell him to take a hike at some point.

CJF should load up on high end linemen and find another RB who is high 4*.

 

[ryoder1]

I ve read that Spell is basically skipping his teams game tonight with an "injury " so he can head out to Columbus tonight. His recruitment is going to be a challenge for Franklin....James may tell him to take a hike at some point.

Yeah this will he a huge challenge to get Spell. He and is family are shopping around. The fact that he is currently "committed" to us means nothing, no advantage. Depending on his attitude, recruitment approach, priorities, etc, we may elect to ease up on really pushing for him. Who knows he could come back to us in the future with some huge NIL request that we won't pay.

 

[Lazy Dave]

WRT Spell:

Imagine he's your kid. Wouldn't you push him to explore his options, take his visits, and see what is out there? The kid is going to make some good money regardless of where he goes.

I've not seen the rumors that he isn't truly injured though.

 

[RickinDayton]

WRT Spell:

Imagine he's your kid. Wouldn't you push him to explore his options, take his visits, and see what is out there? The kid is going to make some good money regardless of where he goes.

I've not seen the rumors that he isn't truly injured though.

No problem with taking visits, it's the hubris of "these are the teams that could flip me". Why the drama? I say Bush league!

 

[Frank Lee]

WRT Spell:

Imagine he's your kid. Wouldn't you push him to explore his options, take his visits, and see what is out there? The kid is going to make some good money regardless of where he goes.

I've not seen the rumors that he isn't truly injured though.

I don't like this reality, but investigate all options, even if it's for negotiation leverage. It could be worth maybe an extra $200k or more.